LucidShadowDreamer 2015-02-16 17:28:04

Yes. I didn't really mention that different people wish different things for several complicated reasons, thanks for the reminder. Also, I believe our difference in faith makes us think slightly differently on death in general, which I think is a good thing. I'm talking about out personal interpretations of course, and not including those of your friends. I'm not thinking about the afterlife in general either, I'm thinking about the devotion. Your interpretation of Christianity (and probably your basic moral ground too; there's no need for what I'm going to say to be faith related at all) seems to lead you to think you should strive to be as good and helpful as you can be, which is very nice. I admire such a qualitym though I am weaker in this area myself. I don't mind though, as I believe I'm doing very well compared to much of humanity these days :(

Mind if I mentally try to pretend putting myself in your situation? If I had a very close friend with similar problems, I really wouldn't know what I'd feel. Part of me might very well want to change places with her/him. I believe I would probably not feel this nearly as strongly as you though; I would most likely not trade places if I could. I am selfish enough to value my own life above others in most situations, for good or for bad. If it's more than one person though, let's say several of my friends, or just me, I'd definitely trade places. Also, if I would have a higher rate of survival by trading places than my friend would have, I might consider it; I just wouldn't trade for certain death with 'only one' person. Weird stuff. I'd also discuss these things with my slowly dying friend on beforehand, as I'm a strong believer in consent. Several of my friends wouldn't want me to take their place even if it was possible, no matter how afraid they were. That may seem very cold, measuring human worth like that, and it's okay if you think so. I'm just being honest with myself though, and can't change much about how I'm really thinking. I didn't make up any reasonable and logical argument for why I think I would do this. It's just true. This will probably change if I ever get children though. I have very good friends, and I love my family, but a child of mine would for some reason be worth more in such a scenario, for no easily explainable reason, except for that they would be much younger. Wierd stuff indeed.
Keep in mind that these are all just hypothetical situations, and it's always difficult to tell what one would actually do. I just feel as if though I know myself well enough to say that this is the way I feel, based on no logical ground at all.
Once again, I'm sorry for brining such weird thoughts up while you're actually facing such a horrible situation, as I know this wasn't what you were looking for. I hope I didn't offend you, and I want you to know that I feel for you and your friend. As you know, KatMaestro's father has (or had... I'm not sure about his situation at the moment actually D:) cancer as well, and it devastated me too. In the past, the father of one of my best friends was diafnosed cancer, and I remember that despite not believeing in any God at that time either, I prayed every night for several months that he'd survive, because there was nothing else I could do in my power, so why not try? Sadly, he didn't survive. I barely knew his father. I just get very emotional about these things, for some reason. Diseases like that are horrible :(
I know several people with depression too. Why is this related? It isn't, really. It has just very actively been on my mind lately, as I'm seeing it slowly eat away on so many people. The death rates are an eight that of cancer yearly too, according to some statistics. It's really painful to watch someone you know go down such a path. I try to help where I can, but it's not always easy.
I hope I'm not delving too deeply into your personal matters, but have you perhaps been depressed at some point in your life? This might sound naive, but you just seem like the type, from what I've seen. That, and I have a vague memory of you mentioning that faith helped you overcome some type of a problem. It doesn't have to be depression of course; It's just late at night, and I'm guessing loosely around and rambling for no reason. As I said, I hope you don't take offence. people don't get offended that much at all where I come from, so I don't really know what is okay to say and ask.

I agree with you that we should be grateful for the life we get to have, even if it can be difficult in some situations. You said something that sounds very much alike something I read in one of my favorite mangas. "We should strive to live our lives so that we don't regret anything once it's over." It's not that original, and it's very common knowledge. I just think that the thought deserves more attention.

"I suppose my wanting ... precious to myself."

=> Here is tthe only point where I see something that I can.. Disagree with? In lack of better words at the moment.
This is where my introduction about our difference in faith was actually headed. As I said, you seem to be trying to achieve somekind of selflessness, with which there is nothing wrong in and of itself.
I can very much relate to this thought, and it's admirable, whether you ultimately manage or not. In later years though, I've come to the realization that it's often okay to be selfish (to an extent). Nothing wrong with that. If you don't have any personal goals, why even live, really? Now, I believe you mentioned you lived to serve Christ, which is all fine and dandy. You are a very nice person, and that belief hasn't made you weaker, but to me it seems stronger, so I endorse your faith. You are a most reasonable person, so it seems you've found a good balance.

What I'm trying to say is that since I don't have that, there is nothing to tell me that I should leave my selfish desires. I still have a moral ground, I've donated to the poor, I try to help people and such. It's not all about donating money in the end, it's about how you actually live, in my opinion. I just think that if you feel the need to, there is no fault in putting yourself first in some situations. If this would be morally wrong, wouldn't you make a person who wants something from you a sinner by giving him/her that, because they would gain something of selfish value for themselves? I'm not sure if I made myself understood as I am not that good at describing things, especially in English...

I would love to get some fame and fortune. I just don't make it my goal, which I think is the right attidude. If you create for the love of creating, the money and recognition you can make is a nice plus. It's just not necessary. If I ever for some reason gained a large amount of money, I hardly doubt it'd drive me crazy, as that wasn't my aim to begin with. I'd still be with my usual friends, and tell the same lame penis jokes and such. I just don't believe there's anything inherrently wrong with a certain amount of selfishness :). Those who hunger for power get corrupted by it, those who hate it can become obsessed with it in a negative manner as well. If you don't mind it, but don't need it, you should be fine.

I don't know why, but although I mean well and I am pretty happy, I feel as though my writing comes across as very harsh for some reason. Does it? Maybe because I try to really drive in my points :/
I just realized that I made it seem like I ranted for my personal selfishness, but I assure you that was not my intention XD

"Because I think of death, I can fully live."

Nice quote. reminds me of "not missing one's cow before it's gone."
By acknowledging death, you appreciate life, that is.

I'll comment about the music stuff you said as well. I really agree with this!

"For if I hear a ch... second time through."

This has always been really true in the Piano Collections version of the FF7 Main theme.

Somehow the measures 5 and 6 feel very different from 1 and 2, despite being identical!

http://pjbarnes.com/sheetmusic/FF7PC.pdf

(page seven in the pdf file).

Thanks for sharing there thoughts with me, it was an interesting read.

LucidShadowDreamer 2015-02-18 02:19:26

Hi again! :3
I'm glad you didn't take offence :D

I usually take no offence either, but for slightly different reasons (but partly the same too). I don't hold myself in too high a regard, and I usually don't go around bragging (unless it's for the sake of weird comedy, in which case the pride is false anyway). But also, it's because I do hold myself in somewhat high a regard, in the right context. That is, I trust my opinion more on most subjects (especially subjective ones) than other people's opinions (unless they persuade me of course). I think it's pretty natural. But that way, if someone claims something that could offend me, I normally simply don't bother with them (i.e. I automatically don't give them any credit; it's not worth my effort to care.)
As a practical example, if someone called me a "fucking gay idiot" (a specific choice of words that no one has ever called me), I wouldn't be hurt at all, really. Because I'm weird, I'd actually probably find it somewhat comedic, and transform the situation into a joke I could tell my friends :)
There's of course a difference if one of the people I have respect for would say it, because they are people I've let my guard down with. I'm sure you would (at least subconsciously) take some offence if your best friends started bullying you, whether you wanted to or not.

But, especially if there is no intent to offend anyone, I don't take offence. That said, I'm not too fond of complete ignorance, or as I sometimes like to call it; incredible stupidity. It's okay to not be intelligent and informed in every area. But when personal convictions and narcissism take too much room away from logical reasoning, I don't think it's usually a good thing.

Once again, long sidenote of mine.
Again, I feel like my writing is harsh, for no specific reason. Weird... It's probably because it's so difficult to portray what one actually feels with words alone, and there's always room for interpretation that may or may not be the same as the intent of the writer, which probably subconsciously worries me :/

I think people deserve a second chance in most cases. That said, I don't believe in objective morality. I believe we should be moral, I just don't believe in the objectivness of it, but more of that later. And so apparently, did the God of Christianity, as he presumably sacrificed his own son in order to forgive the sin of humans. Naturally, I don't believe this, and I find paradoxes even in the symbolic writing, but I understand the core concept to a basic extent. I could discuss religion for very long times, as long as it's in a positive light :)
As long as debates stay relaxed, and no one takes offence, it can actually be quite interesting. Of course, it's often interesting when people take offence too, but I myself don't like to be part of such discussions, though I enjoy old debates bewteen Christopher Hitchens and other people from time to time.

"I'll let you guess who spoke those words."

=> I guessed, and it's confirmed.

I can agree in most cases. However, if self sacrifice is done for selfish reasons, I don't think it's a great love to sacrifice oneself. I believe there's room for subjectivity in everything. Imaginary concept time.

There is a person who is about to die, but doesn't really mind doing so, though he/she couldn't really do anything about the situation anyway. You are aware of this fact. This person likes you to the extent that life would be a pain and misery without you, and the person would rather withstand extreme physical torture and death than be alone and without you. The plot thickens. You have a longing to die, for whatever reason. Just happens to be, you can manage to prevent the first person's death by dying in his/her stead. You do so, in the process fullfilling your 'thanatos', in this case, your selfish desire to leave this world.

Now, the other person is alive; you are dead. This person hates life from now on, and because you, the one and true love of said person's life is dead, wished that he/she was dead as well. But guess what, this person believes fully and truly that suicide is agaist God, and goes through 50 more years of life, life-loathing with next to no positive emotions.

Was self sacrifice truly the most moral thing to do?
I dare say I don't think so :p
I've always been a strong believer that you can find new perspectives by looking at extreme, yet conceivable examples. By streching out a small difference, you can see how much it would matter in a large context. This is why, I don't fully agree with the quote you presented with, even though I think it hold water in several situations, and it can indeed be noble to sacrifice oneself.
Yeah...

"There's no atheist in the foxhole."

=> You will indeed notice that very many "atheists" will at a time or another try praying. They can still be atheists though, as it's not against the definition. It's just a psychological response to call out to someone/anyone to help when things get out of one's hand. As there are so many believers, it actually works surprisingly much like advertisement. It makes you aware of something you wouln't have thought about yourself. It gives you new alternatives to try, even if you doubt they'd be the best solutions. It can work through your subconscious, and when you see the product (the need for a higher power), you figure you might as well try :)

I was an agnostic at the time, but if a parent of mine was to slowly die, I'm certain I'd pray again. Not because I truly believe in it, but because I know it won't hurt, and there's a 0.000000000000000000000000000001 percent chance it might just work. To be honest, I probably wouldn't give credit to God afterwards either, even if my parent survived. I'd just feel gratitude towards luck (which probably doesn't really exist either), and to the doctors, in case this was a disease.

Prayer can be hurtful if used wrongly. Even according to faith, God isn't supposed to fix everything for you. Still, some parents don't allow medical attention to their children, but try to pray away diseases instead, leading to unnecessary death :(

I'm glad to hear you haven't been depressed lately :D
I see the vanity too, as well as all the other negative things. Though I don't believe in objective morailty, I personally could do without all the wars and hatred. From my perspective, the world is a pretty wicked place, and for many, life is nothing but misery. I just face the reality of it. There's not much I could do about it, and even if I could help to a small amount, I'm too selfish to devote my entire life for such a purpose.
I try to enjoy the good things, as there are many, while still not ignoring the bad ones. People are actually somewhat wired to focus on the negative. Maybe so that we can be aware of the dangers and overcome them? Who knws :p

I'd claim that I'd seen alot in this world, despite being very young. Not always personally, but second or third hand. You of course, seem to be talking of personal experiences. I don't think that being informed, either intellectually or emotionally, has to take away from the satisfaction of life. It does, to an extent. In the end, I believe it comes down to attitude.

I believe that you can give a lot of love by living. You can give love every day, in several shapes and forms. By dying, you can only give love once. And I don't think that you can truly measure the amout of love you give by how you give it.

This is not the way you meant your writing, but I occasionally like to humor the idea of dying in an extreme way, instead of doing so while laying in a bed. I don't have any wish to die though, so that'll have to wait 'til I turn 277 years old ;)

"I am not a good person."

Who is? What gives you the power do define a good person? There are people I'd call "bad" and "good", though they'd label themselves the other way around. It's all about what standards you set.

Even though one would'vr done terrible things in the past, are you really the same person now? In that case, have you really done anything bad at all, as the second that just passed is already gone?

I'll have to continue this in my other response.....

LucidShadowDreamer 2015-02-18 02:21:49

You say it'd be wrong to compare oneself to the rest of humanity. I disagree. What else to compare with? You're of course thinking of the ultimate being. Spolier alert, you're playing a game in which you can't but lose. By definition, humans are supposed to be born in sin. Apparently unlike Jesus (but don't quote me on this, as I'm not sure). You could of course argue otherwise, but in the end, it all comes down to interpretation. Even if you believe in the lord and happen to be correct, and you were created in his image, there is nothing to tell you that you are a bad person because you cannot live up to his image. If you think that is the case, I'd say that God is in that case resposible of creating a crooked image. If he is perfect, shouldn't his image be too? And if it isn't, did he intentionally make it so? And if so, it cannot be expected of the not-perfect image to be perfect. One can strive for it, but it is unachievable.

This is why, I refuse to believe you are a bad person just because you keep on doing some things you perceive as "evil", instead of for example giving away all your wealth and earthly conenctions and spend the rest of your life doing precisely the things that you think God desires from you.

There are people who do give away the rest of their lives to please thier God :D
Some of them are called Islamic extremists, and I'm sure you know what they give away their lives for...

Naturally, I'm not comparing you, nor most believers to them, it's just an observation about being devote to a fault. I know you don't necessarily consider yourself as quite religious either! I'm not that lost.

I'm just ultimately trying to say that despite your shortcomings, there is no reason to believe you have not much worth at all. After all, it is said that God loves everyone, no? In that case, you'd be worth God's love no matter what anyway. Of course, I don't know exactly what your convictions are :p

You said (paraphrasing) that you wouldn't want to take away other people's right to selfishness, but you try not to have any for personal reasons. I'm trying to convince you that you'd probably do well from not beating yourself up about not doing everything in the most moral way possible, and that a certain amount of pride or self worth could work for you too!
Who knows, maybe I'm God's subtle messanger, and telling you his will for you? After all, God works in mysterious ways ;)

(I know you said you shouldn't get offended, but I still want to reassure you that I'm only joking, hehhe...)

Also, there's the garden of Gethsemane. It's seems so me that Jesus himself felt distraught, for one reason or another. There are several interpretations, but one is that Jesus wished for it to be another way to relieve the sin of the world than without him having to withstand extreme torture (to which some say you have to add all the divided wrath God would have felt for all the sinners, but not everything added towards Jesus alone). In one version, Jesus needed an angel to strengthen him.
Despite his (possible) reluctance, he went and did what he must.

To me, it makes it even more courageous that Jesus would sacrifice himself, if he didn't really want to do so. If he could perfectly calmly do it like a robot, than what'd be the point?

That said, it shows that even the most perect possible human being could pray for there to be another way. Why do I mention this?

Well, as I said, I believe that you can get a lot out of stretching small things out in a larger context.
For a while there, it seemed like Jesus has the smallest of regrets about sacrificing himself (which I already mentioned made the sacrifice [which remember, I don't really believe in, at least on a level of faith]), greater.

Yet, if you could now switch places with your friend who is suffering from cancer, and you did so. There are two scenarios.

One, you don't feel any regret, and have surpassed Jesus in this area, in a way.

Two, you regret it to some extent. In this case, do you think you'd feel bad, or potentially "evil" for regretting it? If not, I guess I don't have much of a case.

But if you would feel bad about the small amout of regret, why should you, if even our Lord and savior felt a small regret in a similar situation?

If we bring up other, much larger "evil" you may or may not have commited, I'd just use the same argument, on a larger scale, I think. Unless I come up with something clever.

All this, is why I think that even a most devout believer should be able to feel some pride and be selfish (which Jesus was to the smallest of extent if he didn't really feel like dying for everyone's sake).

You could argue that Jesus never felt this way, but as I believe I already mentioned, I am not going to argue different interpretations of something I don't believe in in the first place. I just like to philosophise sometimes, which is apparent from some of my old blog posts...
Do you have a blog? I think I'd find writings of yours to be most interesing XD

Either way, I'll focus on the rest now. I'm not trying to really argue against you or anything. I'm just trying to bring up my thoughts of selfishness from a belivers perspective as well. As you said in your latest review on one of my pieces... What does the listener hear?

"I don't think it's humanly possible to live without some kind of self-driven motivation"

=> I believe such a thing to be impossible as well :)

"But to love others as yourself and value others more highly than yourself is key."

=> As I've mentioned, I believe there's a certain level of subjectivity to everything :3

"one purpose of the Ten Commandm ... 't want to start preaching." (space saving).

=> I can see that. I'd like to argue that if this were the case, we'd surely know what's right or wrong without the commandments, as most of them are SO SIMPLE, and despite knowing them, we fail at every one.

That said, I don't see the ten commandments as a great moral code, but a rather primitive one. Everything is subjective ;)
Example, I don't condone slavery (unless it's of the pretend and sexy kind... Hehhe... Seriously, I should stop joking in the midst of somewhat more serious matters, but I can't).

(Part of the 10th commantment: "..nor his male servant", which is about envy).

"Christ could have chosen to be selfish and not lay down His life by being the sacrifice and propitiation for our sins."

=> I guess I don't need to mention this more than I already have XD

"...this is perhaps the greatest act of selflessness."

=> 'Perhaps' indeed.

But as I said.
I'm not here to argue with your faith. I like the way you speak though your belief, and are not really trying to convince me, as you know I don't believe in most of the things to begin with. I like this, but this means that we are not really arguing, but just having a nice discussion that could as well be about what games we like to play and why.

"Would I be lying to you if I said I believe this but didn't want to love others the same way?"

=> I'm not sure I'm intelligent enough to understand this question of yours, sorry to say :/

I can kinda agree with that sentance at the end. I'd like to argue that the first man/woman ever born has affected life more than Jesus, as there would be no human life without such a person.
Also, there's the buttrefly effect, so anyone could be extremely important without doing much anything. Thridly, I'd like to argue that the person who launches a nuke that destroys humanity and all other life will affect life quite a bit. So both in the past, possibly right now, and in the future, someone might (have) affect/ed life more than Jesus, if you take such a thing as litterally as I do :)

He's not the only man who has affected a large portion of humanity either. Inventors, for example, change the world, as do writers and doctors and politicians.

This is all I have to say though.

I once again apologice for my lack of interest in reading through what I myself have written, so I'm sorry I forced you to read through all that messy writing which is probably filled with confusion and errors of differing kinds.
Once again, thanks for an interesting talk!

LucidShadowDreamer 2015-02-21 03:21:05

I love discussions too! That said, I think I'll try to keep this short, as I'm sure we know where we stand by now :)

"Agree to disagree"

=> I agree ;)

I actually wrote a semi-serious (not entirely though) blog post about the meaning of life. I doubt you want to read it though, but I'll leave a link to it anyway.

http://lucidshadowdreamer.blogspot.fi/2013/11/the-meaning-of-life.html

I would agree that morality is key to the meaning of life, but I would like to add that so are a few other factors, as morality alone leaves us with much limitation.

You say that morality becomes chaotic when there is no objectivity, and sadly, I agree. That said, I just believe it's chaotic, not that it's objective. There are several similarities and differences that you can see in the morailty between different cultures. The similarities I'd argue that rise from human biology and psychology, while the differences emerge from the different surroundings (physical, social and emotional).

I think I saw the Hitchens vs. Lennox debate several years ago, but I guess I should rewatch it :)

"That is an assumption."

=> That is an assumption indeed, as I stated in my previous response. It may well be meant not to be interpreted that way. However, if that is the case, it takes away all of the beautiful meaning from the sacrifice if he didn't mind it in the very least. It might be a difference in our interpretation of the word regret though. I too can be sad without it, but in a case like this, I know I'd be feeling regretful before even having anything to regret (I'm sure there's a word for this somwhere), if not at least anxious.
I basically agree with what you were saying though.

Ironically, God's capability to feel regret (as in 1 Samuel 15:10-11, for instance) is often used as an argument for the unchangability of God. Because feeling regret is not the same as changing one's mind :)

"the image of God, not copies or a clone.
Image as in mentally, morally, and socially"

=> Yes of course. Humans are different from each other as well, so they couldn't all be a clone. That said, if we were supposed to be the same morally, we clearly weren't. And however symbolic the story of the first sin, I think it's a bit riduculous. How could man really know and understand that eating the fruit from the tree was morally wrong, when eating the fruit was the action that allowed for the knowledge of good and evil to exist? I'm sure you don't read the genesis story literally, but still. The fruit is probably meant to symbolise sex anyway :p

"...why allow His creation to be a tarnished image?"

Indeed. Most people I've heard defend this say that this is because of free will, which I can get to an extent, but surely there are several ways to interact without interrupting the free will, as God sure seemed to interact quite a lot in the old testament.

"I can feel pretty good about myself when I look at the news."

Funny. I mostly feel like shit when watching the news (I realise that you don't feel good about yourself, just saying that you could). Part of me is still happy that my life is better though. If you're in a better position yourself, you'd also have more resources to use to help people. By gaining something, you have more to give. You gaining something might even prevent someone even more selfish from gaining the same thing and keeping it to themself. Thus, if one is truly a moral person, gaining something might actually help more than destroy. Leadreship is also something that is gained, and I'd sure hope that in a choice between two alternatives, the person who cares about others and know how to help is chosen. Not sure what the point I was trying to come to was anymore o.O Let's forget about what I said then...

Your point is about comparing oneself to other people though, that much is clear. And as you said, the difference between us is a spiritual one, which is also the basis for our different ways of seeing the comparisons. In my world, there is nothing divine I can compare myself with, except from fictional characters. And I'll have you know, I'd be a far less moral a person had I not read everything I've read, had I not watched everything I've watched, and had I not played everything that I've played. This is for certain.

LucidShadowDreamer 2015-02-21 03:21:22

And since I don't have anything objective to compare myself to, I loop up to subjective people, fictional or not, with whom I can afree and relate. I try to be better where I think it's needed, but I also know that I must not let the wishes of my own fall behind those of others. How then could I ever fullfill any love towards other, if I don't think I deserve their love back and shut myself away from them?

In a world as dark as this, I admit that my friends are far more important to a person such as myself than people I do not know. If I was given the opportunity to save on of my friends from certain death, or those of 100 people in, let's say any random third world country; people I'd never see, I'd definitely save my friend. This is clearly immoral objectively, but I share no love for those random people (who knows, every single one of them might be horrible people, or they might be the opposite of that), and I would selfishly feel much better if my friend was the one who lived. The only exception to this would be if my friend would tell me that he/she wanted to die for the sake of those random people, and even then I'd have my doubts. I'm a strong believer in consent, but sometimes it's impossible to know what a person really wants, despite what they might tell you. Some people don't even know what they themselves want.
Point is, I value my subjective morality and the love I share for the people around me higher than what I know to be even "objectively" right.
Thus, you might be right in that the heart is inherently evil. But if so, the same is true for all people, and hey, at least we all have that in common then.

Many of the things you menitoned, I claim I can do without looking thorugh the eyes of Christ. Despite what I just said, I feel much empathy and respect for people I've never seen before. I try not to be too judgemental before knowing enough about people, and I'll be the first to say that I am far from the best and most "moral" person in this world.

But, whatever works for you is good, as long as you're happy, or at least content. I'm not here to undermine your belief.

I have actually never "hated" anyone. Hate is as strong as love, and I've never experienced it. I've felt temporary anger towards people, but I've always been fast to forgive. I throw around the word a lot, and you'll hear me saying this like "I hate swimming in cold water", but I have yet to experience true hatred :/
I've had a pretty stable and good upbringing, which I'm grateful for.

"However, my past doesn't define me, nor does my present-time really."

=> Interesting.

Maybe we shouldn't define our selves before we've lived out entire lives :)

It's a shame that you don't have a blog, but I've truly enjoyed your writings here on Newgrounds. You're a smart person with a lot of insight, and not only that, but a sense of poetry too.

LucidShadowDreamer 2015-03-05 22:03:38

Hahha XD That's an unusual way to approach advertising, don't you think :p?
Thanks but no thanks. I'd rather stay on Newgrounds :)
Good luck with your site though!

(Pro tip; when resizing the logo for the header, make sure that the quality remains top notch).